Posts by the pharmer

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

I know!

DT, don't get me wrong, I do appreciate what you’re saying about the elements involved in your more complex compositions, but let me make this clear. We were not discussing complex tonalities or modes; this was basic major vs. minor keys. The more he explained, the more mistakes were made…on basic things!

You said, I sometimes find it easier to try to forgot this kind of music theory so I can explore different kinds of structure and ways of thinking about music, so I'm pretty tolerant when others get the details wrong.

This wasn’t a matter of him getting some minor details wrong about some obscure and confusing music theory…these were errors in the very foundation and fundamentals of music theory.

He made a comment that, “there are no sharps in the A-minor scale”; Well, there isn’t just one A-minor scale, there are three! So that statement is incomplete and incorrect because all three “A-minor” scales need to be considered before making that kind of claim -- Melodic minor, Harmonic minor, and Natural minor. ( Natural minor is the only one of the three A-minor scales to not have any sharps; the other two do. And if you read his description of the other two minor scales, they are not correct either, indicating to me that he didn’t completely understand basic minor scale forms. )

We’re not talking advanced theory here…and given the fact that he was pointing out and debating smaller details (instead of looking at the big picture), I couldn’t let these basic errors (the very foundation of music theory) go unaddressed.

This might seem insignificant, but when he tried to use these incomplete and incorrect statements to criticize me and discredit my point, I needed to address them.

I hope I made sense.

Thanks for your input!

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

DT, what follows pretty much sums it up.

In my initial example, my point was, we had a piece of music to interpret, and it was a given that it was in the key of “A”…BUT, there was some dispute as to which key of “A” it was…major/minor. The WT and I differed on the interpretation of certain notes (C’s) as to whether they should be played as C-natural or C-sharp.

What significance would that have? In my example, although the entire JW ensemble would sound ‘in harmony’ with each other (since they all played the C’s as ‘naturals’ – vs. sharp), they ultimately would be incorrect in their interpretation (maybe they didn’t see the key signature or read the accidentals correctly or whatever the case for the misinterpretation) – and therefore the piece sounded in a minor-key , instead of the major-key which the composer intended. I was just trying to point out how a misreading or misinterpretation of one note in a piece of music (C# vs C-natural) could ultimately change the way a piece sounds in terms of its major-minor tonality. I did not mean for it to get into a music theory lesson.

If this was music, and it was written in the key of “A”, and you insisted on singing/playing every “C” as a C-natural, it would sound like the piece is in a Minor key – i.e. A-Minor. If everyone sang/played “C” as a natural, it might sound correct – i.e. in harmony with each other – but if the composer (Jesus Christ) intended it to be in the key of A-Major (not minor), every “C” should actually be sung/played as a C-sharp instead of C-natural, thus making it a Major key.

I don’t know how, but He missed my point, so I clarified further:

Using “chords” to clarify…an “A” chord consisting of a triad (3 notes) has an A, C, and E in it. The A-major triad (chord) consists of A (natural), C# (sharp), and E (natural); whereas an A minor triad consists of A (natural), C (natural…not sharp), and an E (natural). If you know a piece of music is in the key of “A”, but you have C-naturals all over the place, it is going to sound as a Minor tonality. Play C#’s in place of all the C-naturals, and it will sound as a Major tonality.

Simplified further…find a piano and play A-natural, C-natural, and E-natural all at the same time…hear the minor quality. Then raise the C-natural by a half step to a C-sharp but leave the A and E where they are (as naturals)…hear the major quality.

He totally missed my point and diverted the subject by claiming that there is no way there would be any confusion as to whether or not it was major or minor solely based on the type of “C” being played (many could argue the same regarding his real example of the WT’s misinterpretation of scripture that I was basing this example on) because there would also be F#’s and G#’s all over the piece …as if those two sharps (F# and G#) were definite proofit was MAJOR. What he didn’t consider, was that the A-melodic minor scale also has F#’s and G#’s (ascending), and only differs from the A-major scale by having a C-natural instead of a C#.

He continued with more and more misinformation on the subject from that point on.

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

(And to think he took me on this long journey all because of the example I used in my post #41 -- which I really meant to have been a simple example.)

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

DT and Twitch. I really do understand what you're saying, but the original quote came from his comments in my "Is this not an easy question" thread, which I believe clearly shows how his comment is an error.

I had addressed this particular error of his (along with others) in my post #63 in that thread. The whole context had to do with major vs minor keys/chords/scales.

Here is an excerpt from that post:

With respect to the melodic major and minor "triads," it is always the third note in the minor triad that is flatted, so to speak, which is why, as I stated above, I had to have been exhausted to have completely ignored the fact that there are 12 intervals (half-steps) in a musical scale ..

Are you serious?? Or are you just playing around?? Major and minor scalse consist of 7 intervals (varying combinations of whole and half-steps).

12 half-step intervals in a musical scale? We musicians refer to that scale as a chromatic scale. What the heck does the chromatic scale have to do with this??

You can see how I thought of the chromatic scale immediately as well, so DT, although I know exactly what you're saying, it doesn't explain his error when you see it in full context. I didn't want to post that whole context, because it gets rather lengthy. Sorry for not being more clear with that. But please, have a read through that other thread, you will more than likely understand my point. (Not only that, but I just noticed he says "melodic major and minor" in that little excerpt I just pasted...yet another error, there are melodic minor scales, but not melodic major scales.

Thanks for showing me that context really does matter, because I can see how, me not having provided the context could actually be confusing.

Please let me know if you see anything wrong with what I've pointed out (after reading the context of the other thread). I wish I knew how to post a link to that thread, but I don't -- sorry.

Sincerely,

Pharmer

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

You said:

"-- I'm satisfied that I erred when I wrote "12 intervals in a musical scale," for I should have written "12 basic intervals on the piano keyboard"

12 basic intervals on the piano keyboard?? You specifically had referred to there being "12 intervals" in a scale, and you referred to them as 1/2 step intervals!

At least now you have changed it to the correct answer…7 intervals…and you recognize that “1/2” step intervals was also incorrect.

If you were in fact talking about basic intervals on a keyboard, you would not have clarified it with "1/2 step" intervals!

...quit blowing smoke...you might fool some, but you're not fooling me.

You said:

"I hope these responses prove to be helpful in some way to you."

I am satisfied! Thank you! I am satisfied that you admitted to one of your many errors that I pointed out. Granted, I had to really work hard and single it out in order to get you to admit it...even seperating it completely from any religious topic.

This long journey of avoidance you have taken us on, has hardly been a demonstration of honesty and humility.

Other readers will no doubt come to their own conclusions as to what value and credibility your words hold, but for me, I think it is rather obvious.

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

Furthermore, above, you said:

"..augmented whole interval"

There is no such interval as a "augmented whole"...the interval you are referring to is called an "augmented second". You really need to be careful, because it seems, the more info you give, even when clearing up a mistake of yours, you end up providing yet another error.

When one covers poison with a bunch of sugar, it might make it easier to swallow, but the toxicity is the same.

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

I asked:

Will you be able to admit it here, the one of many errors you have avoided?

You said:

I don't understand this question, but with respect to the entirety of what I wrote in a different thread:

With respect to the melodic major and minor "triads," it is always the third note in the minor triad that is flatted, so to speak, which is why, as I stated above , I had to have been exhausted to have completely ignored the fact that there are 12 intervals (half-steps) in a musical scale when I wrote what I did about the harmonic F#-minor chord's fourth interval being a Eb (D#), when the fourth interval will always be a C# (Db), when this note will always be five half-steps away from the root note. While a minor chord will always be three half-steps away from the root note, a major chord will always be four half-steps away from the root note.

I highlighted a single error of yours for this thread alone, djeggnog, not a whole lot to get confused over. And THIS error was made as a correction to a previous error of yours...maybe you need to do more research prior to correcting previous errors so they don't pile up as high as they have.

And now everyone can see just how difficult that was for you to admit your error, even to non-religious matters (and by the way, I didn't ask a religious question...read it again if you in fact did have a difficult time comprehending it. It was/is a non-religious question...and your religious standards ought to be able to be mentioned and adhered to, even in the midst on non-religious matters...unless, that is, you have double standards). :)

(btw- I can accept that your brass section consisted of non-brass instrumentation; I won't have any more issues with that. ;)

I won't make you do this with all your errors (but you're welcome to admit to those as well) :) ...like the pm of yours, where I think, your errors actually out-numbered the number of sentences you used.

Anyway, thanks. At least you admitted this one...and for that one in many, I do appreciate!

Sincerely,

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

Back to my OP, given djeggnog's self proclaimed proficiencies, it really should be an easy question for him. If not, he can always look it up (just like he tells others to do), and given the fact that I pointed out his errors, I hope he would look them up. Otherwise, he's not holding himself up to the same standards he claims.

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

Just an FYI for anyone who doesn’t know his musical background. He has stated:

“You didn't know this, but you are talking to a former musician,”

(Well, somewhere he has actually informed me he is a former professional musician, but I can’t find that post now, it might have been in a pm)

“I realize you didn't know that I play alto sax (Eb), trombone (Bb) and keyboards (organ and synthesizer). A little background: I'm a former pre-Disco era R&B musician, who, along with a tenor saxophonist, that also played the soprano sax and the flute ; an alto saxophonist; and a trumpeter -- we four -- were the brass section of a nine-man band with a three-man (actually a one-man and two-woman) singing group that would sing for one of our 40-minute sets as part of our ensemble.”

I highlighted the above to show yet another one of many errors of his as regards. It is in reference to one of the members of the ‘brass’ section of the group-- someone who plays flute, tenor sax, and soprano sax (considered woodwind instruments, not brass instruments). Contrary to what he has stated, this person would NOT be considered part of ‘the brass’ section. Although those three instruments are made out of metal, they are part of the ‘woodwind’ section, but I have heard them sometimes referred to generically as part of a ‘horn’ section in a general sense – Regardless, never are they considered a member of a ‘brass’ section.

I realize I might sound picky here, but from what I can tell, I am no pickier than what he is.

He claims such authority with this non-religious material, yet has made many errors. And even at that, I don’t really mind that he has made errors (although the sheer number of them decreases his credibility), my real concern with him is his inability to see, acknowledge, admit, and correct the errors.

If he can’t own up to his errors on a benign topic such as music (of which he claims to be a competent authority), especially when these errors are not a matter of opinion or interpretation, how am I (or anyone) to take him seriously on matters that are not so cut-and-dry and are subject to interpretation? More importantly, how can anyone think he is going to speak honestly if he can’t do so and admit error in the simplest and non-threatening of topics?

19

djeggnog, YOU were a professional musician...answer THIS non-religious question.

by the pharmer in

jw
friends

don't worry, this should be an easy elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(those of you wondering why i ask, i wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.

how many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

the pharmer

Don't worry, this should be an EASY elementary question, especially for a former professional musician.

(Those of you wondering why I ask, I wonder just how stubbornly he will hold on to his false statement -- one of many -- even though it is a relatively benign and non-religious topic.)

How many intervals in a harmonic minor scale, djeggnog?

Now write it out in terms of whole-steps (W) and half-steps (H). (For example, like this: Major scales consists of 7 intervals in the pattern of W-W-H-W-W-W-H)

If you do in fact give the correct answer, I am curious as to how your answer will compare to the error you made when you previously stated to me, "I had to have been exhausted to have completely ignored the fact that there are 12 intervals (half-steps) in a musical scale when I wrote what I did about the harmonic F#-minor", (which in terms of whole and half-steps, your harmonic minor scale -- in your own description -- would have looked like this, H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H , which would also mean that your harmonic minor scales have a total of 13 notes in a row...interesting!).

In this case, how true will you be to your own words when you essentially have said in the past that you, as a JW, are honest enough to admit when you are wrong? Will you be able to admit it here, the one of many errors you have avoided?